A TheServerSide thread, at the bottom: "I agree that 21 frameworks is too many. It also makes me wonder why we need something else. I also haven't heard anything about JSF that makes me think it's going to do anything better than the tools I already have.
I am concerned about some of the current 'standards', because they're not good ones. I use to think anything that came out of Sun was gold, I don't think that anymore.
JSP's are a horrible standard. Why are we trying to copy MS ASP and why do we have to compile our pages into servlets? I admit, I'm addicted to JSP's just like most of the community, but I'm weaning myself off of them. JSP's are not conducive to MVC. This is a hard admission to make. There are so many better ways to deliver web content, but as usual we have to add additional complexity.
I agree that things are getting too fractured. I can't even keep up with the myriad of projects out there. Everyone wants to make their own presentation, persistence, and database frameworks. We criticize MS for not allowing choice, but there is a certain seduction about not having to worry about which IDE to use, which appserver to use, which framework to use, etc. Not to mention, just about every appserver is trying to achieve some sort of vendor lock-in of their own anyway.
In the past 2 years or so, it seems like the Java community has become quite a mess. It has come to the point that I don't even care about Java anymore. It's a tool on my workbench. If it were not for Tapestry, I'd probably be building my current project in ASP. (PHP if it were allowed here)
You know what I also found out? The company I work for, and most companies are like this, doesn't care what I do, just so long as it works. They don't care about design patterns, open source, standards, etc. They want it to work, they want it to be maintainable, and they want it to have decent performance. We leverage MS and Java technologies and I'm impressed by what I've seen. I don't know how every project works under the hood around here, but they do work.
I do hope a standard framework eventually arises, but the way standards seem to be adopted lately it hasn't been because it's the best. Lately the Java community seems more like MS. You know, Windows is a standard, and I'm not convinced it's the best."
Two points made here:
- JSPs are not good for MVC
JSP 1.0 was not good for MVC, that's right. JSP was originally launched as an ASP killer, you would write code within the HTML, just as with PHP. From JSP 1.1 the purpose of JSP changed though, tag libraries were introduced. If you look at the KeyTopic JSPs (but you can't :P) you'd notice there is not a single line of Java code in there. All the logic is in the controller (Servlet), the model is the database and the view is done with JSP which only contain HTML and some fairly simple JSP tags (<c:out .../>, <c:forEach ...>...</c:forEach></li> )
- Choice is not always good.
This is something I agree with, sometimes you don't want to choose between 12 frameworks, you just want to use one that everybody uses and that is supported and documented well.